- Is Lewis commenting on romantic aesthetics on pages 172-173? What is accepted about the poem, and what is not accepted? Did other romantic writers have similar views?
- Dreams and nightmares harbor an element of fantasy, as well as psychological implications for some literary critics. Their mention often illustrates a state of sub-conscious desire or unconscious knowing of events to come. One very apparent reason to look at dreams in The Monk is that they often work as foreshadowing. From what we have read so far, how do dreams function as a method of foreshadowing, and how does this function enhance the Gothic element of the novel? In addition, how does the mention of and discussion of dreams give insight into the speaker or deepen the Gothic elements? For your convenience, I have noted pages that mention dreams or other words that can mean the same. The citations are taken from the online version of the book, presented through NetLibrary, provided by the AUM Online Library service (http://aumnicat.aum.edu:2079/).
Dreams
1.a dream, a dreadful dreadful dream told me . . . . . . But where am I? (Page 201)
2.Become sensible of his danger, awakened from his dream of confidence, He resolved (Page 36)
3.in silence. The Lady was the first to recover herself. 'It is no dream! (Page 159)
4.and then hope for mercy! Then dream of heaven, and sigh for worlds of light, (Page 227)
5.just witnessed had been a dream, so strong an impression had it made upon his (Page 15)
6.and I to own? If such there be, in gentle dream Instruct my feet to shun (Page 135)
7.deceitful vapors faded away like a dream. (Page 224)
Slumber
1.Mother, sank back upon the pillow. 'This slumber cannot be natural!' cried the (Page 159)
2.me in some degree tranquillized my spirits. I fell into a sort of slumber (Page 86)
3.does her Spright. When Mortals in slumber are bound, (Page 166)
4.which I was so much in need. I sank into a profound and tranquil slumber, (Page 87)
5.and place it upon her pillow. A death-like slumber will immediately seize (Page 147)
6.minutes seemed perfectly overcome with slumber. (Page 61)
7.with caution. Elvira was enjoying a profound and quiet slumber; Her cheek (Page 134)
8.the two Waiting-women unhurt, and buried in the same death-like slumber which (Page 65)
9.He then returned to his Bed, and resigned himself to slumber. He awoke, heated (Page 36)
10.all thy joys are torn from me! Ah me! How oft will Fancy's spells in slumber (Page 116)
Fancied
1.his mind being conscious of their import. Such was his occupation, when He fancied (Page 177)
2.to influence his slumbers. He still fancied himself to be in the Church of the (Page 14)
3.that her dreams were pleasant, and as Antonia bent over her, She fancied that (Page 134)
4.sweetness which rendered her truly enchanting. Lorenzo fancied that She (Page 108)
5.towards the door. Bewildered by fear, He fancied that his flight was opposed (Page 160)
6.so far from the Ground but that I fancied I perceived a female figure with a (Page 83)
7.was recalled to his mind, and He almost fancied that He beheld Elvira's visionary (Page 178)
8.Sometimes his dreams presented the image of his favorite Madona, and He fancied (Page 36)
9.strength enough to quit the room: Suddenly She fancied, that She heard a low (Page 167)
10.of sorcery and Spirits, He fancied that some unquiet Ghost was wandering near (Page 145)
8 comments:
1. I don’t think Lewis is particularly commenting on romantic aesthetics in this passage so much as he is reflecting on the pain of exposing one’s writing to a critical eye. The marquis advises Theodore to “take at least the precaution of communicating your verses to none but those whose partiality for you secures their approbation.” I find that kind of advice to be helpful only to amateur writers who have no serious ambitions for publication. I think the argument here is more directly aimed at weighing the cost of writing (time, energy, emotion) against the possible payoff (publication, approval of others, rejection letters).
2. Dreams are definitely a foreshadowing device in this novel. For instance, when Ambrosio dreams inappropriately of his Madonna, it foreshadows his relationship with Matilda, the model for the portrait. Lorenzo’s dream of Antonia also seems to foreshadow future events, but I haven’t finished the entire novel yet, so I can only speculate. These semi-prophetic dreams reinforce Gothic themes of the supernatural and the foreboding. It is inappropriate for monks to have lustful thoughts, especially if the subject of them is the Virgin Mary. This underscores the sin and depravity of Ambrosio and Matilda’s relationship.
1. Lorenzo’s talk with Theodore on pages 172-173 seems to be more of a warning than commentary on romantic aesthetic. He seems to be quite cynical as he explains that “though all are not able to write books, all conceive themselves able to judge them” (Lewis 172). It is as if Lorenzo believes that critics of the time are unjust in their persecutions; therefore, he knows that Theodore must be ready for criticism from all corners. At the sight of Theodore’s downcast eye, however, Lorenzo quickly encourages the young sage by commenting on the joy that the poem brings him. With this piece of encouragement, Lorenzo drops in pieces of constructive criticism concerning metaphor, plagiarism, and clarity. He explains that the leisurely writer is more responsible for these mistakes because they have the time to perfect and polish. It seems that this particular idea comes more from Lewis rather than Lorenzo.
2. The element of dreams in The Monk is extremely significant because they inevitably outline the subconscious that the characters disallow to be shared. By entering the dreamscape, readers are allowed to see what the characters think without any actual action or dialect from the character. For example, Ambrosio’s lust finds itself materialized in his dreams even though the monk does not initially act on these emotions. Further in the text, Elvira’s fear for her daughter materializes into a much needed dream-warning as she awakens to her daughter’s attack. While the dreams certainly foreshadow events to come in the text, there is almost a supernatural feel about them. To an extent, the Gothic mood is heightened as the dreams are more suitably dubbed premonitions.
1. Like my other classmates, I do not believe that Lewis is commenting on romantic aesthetics as much as he is commenting on the problems which writers face. Raymond enjoys Theodore's poem but cautions him against critics, copying the work of others, and not perfecting his work. He tells Theodore that amateur writers have the time and patience to perfect the defects found in their work, unlike those who are paid or are working under a time restraint.
2. The dreams and private musings of the characters follow a psychological bent. They give the readers the inner thoughts and feelings of characters which their outward behavior does not always highlight. Many of the dreams do seem to be a foreshadowing of events in the future. These "predictions" do seem to heighten the Gothic effect of the story. The terror attendant on the unknown is often a Gothic trait.
1. Leigh Said, I don't think that Lewis was commenting on romantic aesthetics, but stateing the problems in which many writers face, especialy as an ameture. But being an ameture he has the time to perfect his work, because he is not pressed with a time limit of production.
2. Dreams give the readers the true feelings deep inside the charaters that their actual behaviour does not potray. Forshadowing is produced by many of the dreams in the "Monk". Forshadowing and ther unknowns are traits of Gothic Literature.
Lorenzo’s response to Theodore’s poem is greatly reminiscent of Lewis’s own experience; he himself, being only nineteen, is an amateur writer at this point. It is intriguing that he includes what is apparently a side passage on the act of writing; he lists the follies of writing as he is writing, which is highly amusing. Furthermore, he must know the potential reaction of readers upon the publication of this radical book. Theodore’s poem encompasses several clichés of romantic literature, including idealized youth, upholding love above all else, mythical creatures like nymphs and fauns, depicting old age as equivalent to sorrow and citing great works of literature. Lewis utilizes all of these clichés in The Monk, yet his work seems more preoccupied with warping these stereotypes of romantic literature. He is well aware The Monk incorporates themes readers may not accept. Many writers of his time are concerned with motifs of darkness, but Lewis takes darkness to an entirely different level. Lorenzo’s commentary on Theodore’s poem and the writing process seem mostly a defense of Lewis’s book, and it is interesting that he writes this passage before the more obscene elements of the work appear.
Emily is entirely correct. The dreams function as hazy premonitions while “the Gothic mood is heightened.” This is proven many times, as seen in the cases of Lorenzo’s dream of Antonia, Ambrosio’s dream of the Madonna and Elvira’s dream of Antonia. It seems that the dreams also intensify and move the action of the novel; while working through The Monk, a reader maintains a sense of eeriness and anxiety, reminding us that people like to be scared and held in suspense. Dreams, and other scenes, such as the gypsy’s fortune of Antonia, serve to foreshadow the futures of characters, so much so, that the deaths of certain individuals seem inevitable.
1. Through Raymond's response to Theodore's poem Lewis appears to give advice rather than comment on romantic aesthetics. It seems that the overlying message Lewis attempts to communicate to the reader through Raymond's criticism is to ignore criticism altogether. Raymond advises Theodore that "Whether you write well or ill, be assured that you will not escape from blame". Also, it is quite possible to assume that Lewis himself uses this rationale to disregard negative critiques or reviews as he is a young writer at the of The Monk's composition.
2. Dreams are undeniably used to foreshadow action in the novel as they continuously become manifested in reality. They not only predict future events but they offer insight into the characters' thoughts and emotions whether they exist on a conscious or subconscious level. Dreams lend elements of mystery and suspense to the novel and in some cases requires the reader to examine what is or isn't real.
I thought it interesting that no one believed that Lewis might be attempting a somewhat subversive statement on Romantic aesthetics. To me, the poem suggests several things. First, the old man is a symbol for "old ways of thinking," what we might call Enlightenment ideals. The old man asked, "Wouldst thou again with amorous rage / Inflame my bosom? Steeled by age / Vain boy, to pierce my breast thins arrows are to weak." He believes that feelings of passion and love are beyond him, that age has hardened his heart. Could this not be a position of the Romantic writer in relation to the literature of the Enlightenment? That the Enlightenment and all it's hardened rationality rejected matters of emotion and calcified the heart of literature?
Also, he tries to send Cupid away by saying, "I know thy falsehood, scorn thy arts, / Distrust thy smiles, fear thy darts; / Traitor, begone, and seek some other to betray!" Again, this suggests the temperament of some people who held onto Enlightenment ideals. They would send away anything illogical. Passion would have no place. Ironically, the old man is turned, to the position of "feeling" just as Enlightenment ideals had turned to Romantic ones:
"...Farewell, hero! Farewell, King! / Your deeds my lips no more shall sing, / For Love alone shall be the subject of my lyre."
Yes, I see several things that I think DO point to a subversive statement about Romantic writers. But to better understand what readers of the day would think of such a poem, looking at Raymond's response is instructive.
Now, understand that Theodore is expressing stereotypical ideas of Romantic poetry when focusing on love and matters of the heart. This, I think, is pointed out in Raymond's response. The questions of what Raymond accepts, and what he rejects about the poem become very valid questions. What makes a good poem or a bad one, considering the Romantic aesthetic? He makes some very clear criticisms and praises. Rather, they seem clear to me.
Have I totally missed something here, or am I just reading too much into the poem and its discussion? Do you see anything in what Raymond accepts and what he rejects that could be a statement by Lewis about Romantic aesthetics? I do. I will elaborate more later...in hopes that someone will come and debate this with me. :)
Dreams have particular importance in the novel as foreshadowing which opens the door for ideas relating to psychic ability and Deja Vu. Both ideas relate to the nature of the sublime and awe-inspiring. It might be viewed as a means of communicating dangers of the evil happenings around receptive characters.
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